Episode 15: DON is coming for you . . . and your books - Diversify Our Narrative - Katie Chen

hello everyone welcome back to the first few podcast what i'm not juan perez but juan perez is sitting right here say hi juan yo what's up everybody um so juan do you want to explain why there's another person's voice behind yeah oh my god everyone johnny's amazing um he's been on the team now as our editor and he's shown me his enthusiasm his passion his love for the arts his love for the people um and in the past few weeks like i've had a really tough time just being you know a solo interviewer and honestly i just wanted to make sure that we brought on people onto the podcast that could create change and can create content that is you know better for everyone and i knew that johnny was a person to to bring on as a host and to finally like bring on that enthusiasm and that passion that we needed for our podcast and so without doubt johnny is the guy johnny's the man and i'm super excited to be you know with him in in this co-hosting's position and honestly i'm gonna learn a lot from him so with that you know introducing johnny an amazing human being thank you so much thank you so much you went on about me a little bit longer than than necessary because we got how are you i'm good so katie tell us a little bit about yourself yeah so i'm a rising senior at limburg high school in san jose california and i'm currently a district lead for the diversifier narrative campaign which is a nationwide campaign that has chapters in high schools like basically all over the u.s right now yeah so you know when we were looking over your uh pre interview survey um you know we we saw that you talked a lot about uh identity and and finding out where we would be um especially through literature and whatnot um i want to know how did the environment around you you know at home or at school the people culture places everything um how did that affect you and your identity or your perception of your identity yeah so i feel like in the area that i'm growing up in which is the silicon valley since i'm in san jose right now there's a lot of like technology and just like advancement around me with, like, people from, like, Asian descent, and especially a lot of my friends are Asian American.

00:02:31 - At my school, we have about, like, 80 to 90 percent of people are Asian American, so I feel like growing up in this environment, it was kind of strange for me, because I kind of lived in this bubble where I was stuck with people who were my culture, but at the same time, like, on TV or in books, I would read about people who looked nothing like me, and people who were having experiences that were really just different from myself, so I feel like growing up, it was kind of, like,

00:02:54 - I felt kind of disconnected from the rest of the world, and I felt like when I went outside of this area, like, for traveling or, like, camps or anything else like that, like, it was a really weird experience for me, because I felt like all of a sudden, it was, like, I didn't belong in that community, even though I was used to belonging for so long at home, because everyone else, like, looked like me and shared my experiences and all that kind of stuff, so I feel like my whole journey with literature was really important with that and showing me that, like, even outside of this bubble, there are still people who look like me.

who can be successful, and people who have the same interests as myself, because I feel like another part of living in this area is that a lot of people's parents expect them to be, like, engineers or, like, CS people or doctors, and for me, that was something that I thought I would do for a really long time, but I think realizing that I really just love literature and the arts and humanities, that was something that, like, I knew that I couldn't just be, like, another doctor or engineer, so I wanted to kind of go more to the humanities, and for me, that was also something that kind of made me feel a little bit more alone at times, because all my friends were going to schools, like, you know, MIT or, like, med school or stuff like that, and for me, that just wasn't something that I wanted to do, but I feel like reading books, for example, like the Joy Luck Club, which I mentioned, like, these were people who had similar struggles to mine, like, identity struggles, and not all of them were, like, your typical stereotypical, like, doctor or engineer, so I feel like that really just helped me to accept who I was and figure out that whatever I want to do, my direction is still the same.

00:04:23 - So, yeah, before we get into the Joy Luck Club, which you talk a little bit more about in your survey, which I really want to dive into, I live in, you know, we live in Salinas, which is, like, 90% Latino, so I relate to, like, the struggles of, you know, finding your identity as yourself.

00:04:43 - How did you try to get different identities? Like, how did you try to, like, find different perspectives, knowing that you were in this, like, bubble, and, or, like, did you, and if you did, like, how did you do that?

00:04:53 - I feel like it was mostly through, like, entertainment, like, at first, you know, obviously most of the people in entertainment are kind of, like, the same demographic, but seeing people like, I don't know, like, Lucy Liu, Constance Wu, those people who were successful in the arts and they didn't just follow, like, whatever their parents wanted to do, that was something that was kind of really inspiring to me, and I feel someone else that I really looked up to was Gemma Chan, because she studied law at Oxford, and I'm also considering going into law, and for me, when I first wanted to do that, that was something that was, like, really scary, because everyone around me was like, why are you going to the humanities? Like, you know, like, this, they just didn't expect me to do that, but seeing that someone like her, who was just, like, so interdisciplinary, and she was so capable of this stuff, kind of just, like, inspired me to do that.

00:05:41 - Yeah, I mean, I, the first question that pops into my mind is, like, why are you going to the arts? And maybe you could dive into a little bit more of, like, a deeper meaning of, like, why, and maybe some struggles you've already, you know, faced going on to that path.

00:05:53 - Yeah, I mean, I feel like I've always been someone who's been pretty connected with the arts, kind of, on my own. Obviously, like, growing up, like I mentioned, I was, I was, like, the stereotypical kid who took all those advanced STEM classes, math classes, and I think, at first,

00:06:09 - I kind of let myself buy into it, and it's something that I see a lot of my friends struggling with, too, in that, like, our parents expect us to take these classes and be successful, and sometimes we are successful, but for me, I think, after achieving that goal, I think, that kind of stuff, which was great, I realized that I didn't really like it that much, and, like, the only reason why I was doing it was because I was expected to do it, and I feel like I liked it, but to the extent that I was achieving something, not so much because I liked the material that I was learning or any of that, but I was, I was really lucky because I started writing from a really young age, and writing, like, poetry, short stories, all that kind of stuff was something that just really helped me process through all of this, and I think when I was young, I treated it more of, like, a side thing that I would do every once in a while, but as I grew up, I started writing, and as I grew up, I found that I was writing things that were more, a lot more personal to me, and things that actually helped me process what was going on, like, whenever I was struggling with something, and so I think up until, like, pretty much, like, eighth grade or, like, freshman year of high school, I still wanted to be, like, just, I wasn't sure, like, probably something related to STEM, I guess, or, like, I think I wanted to study neuroscience at one point, and then, like, I remember in freshman year, I, I was, like, kind of bored one weekend, and then I heard that there was this, like, law conference going on at U of M, and I was like, oh, I want to see Hastings, and it was just, like, a panel of a bunch of lawyers who were really passionate about what they do, and they range from everything from, like, corporate law to, like, public defense, all that kind of stuff, and I feel like hearing them talk was just, like, so different, because they were fighting for people and things that they really believed in, and I feel like when I was sitting there, I just, like, had a sudden realization where I was, like, this is what I want to do, like, not necessarily law at that time, but it was just, like, something where I'm able to help people using my words and using all the information that I have, and I was, like, I was, like, this writing that I've been doing, and I feel like, for me, writing has always just been something that comes pretty naturally to me, or it's just something that I really truly enjoy doing, and

00:08:02 - I guess kind of thinking about that kind of got me to the conclusion that that's where I want to go in the future, and I feel like ever since then, I've just been a lot happier with, like, myself and what I see in the future, and I don't necessarily, like, I think that up until now, like, my parents are still, like, trying to be supportive, even though I know that sometimes they're a little bit, like, iffy about it, and I feel like they're trying to be supportive, and I feel like they're not it, but I feel like that's probably the best thing that I've ever done for myself, because I see that a lot of my friends, they are planning to major in, like, CS or, like, bio in college, but I know that a lot of them don't really enjoy it, and I'm just personally really glad that I was able to tell myself, like, if I keep doing this, I'm not going to be happy later on, so yeah, that's pretty much how I got here. Can we just talk about how hard it is for, like, those societal norms to, like, get away from them? Because I think I hear that a lot, right? Like, yeah, no, I want, I want to go into CS, because my parents want me to make a lot of money, so I actually have, like, a question for both of you, which is, like, how can people get away from that, and more specifically to Katie, like, how did you get away from that? It's one of those things that just obviously doesn't happen overnight, and, like, honestly, looking back, everything is kind of just, like, blurred together, like, I see, like, before and after, but I don't really think of, like, the middle all the time, but

00:09:16 - I feel like, for me, it was kind of just, like, a gradual, like, insistence, because my parents knew that I was into writing, and they were supportive of it early on, but I feel like early on, their image was, like, why don't you be a doctor who can also write? And then later on,

00:09:31 - I was, like, what if I don't want to be the doctor, but I just want to write? And then I feel like at the beginning, they kind of didn't take me seriously, so in that sense, it wasn't too hard, because whenever I said it, they would be, like, oh, yeah, sure, like, whatever, you're going to go be a writer or whatever, and they didn't really believe me, but I think when I started researching, like, universities and, like, different programs and actually, like, talking to professionals, and I was really lucky to be able to get an internship last summer related to law, and I feel like that, from there, like, they kind of saw that that was something that I genuinely wanted to do. It wasn't just, like, a joke, and it wasn't just something that I wanted to do just because I didn't want to be a doctor, but it was something that I'm actually really passionate about and interested in, and yeah, so I feel like from there, there's not really, like, a clear way to break away from those norms, like you said, like, there's not, there's not, like, a formula or anything, and it's definitely hard every time, but I think kind of, just having that kind of inner motivation to do something is something that, like, people will hopefully see eventually. I'm lucky that my parents and the people around me were appreciative of that, and they recognized that, and I think that just really helped me to figure out that that's what I want to do, and I'm not going to give up what I want to do just because other people expect me to go a different way. Yeah, and I, like I said, I did want to dive into the lucky, the joy luck club, and, you know, having you talk a little bit more about the book, and then finally, finally, how it actually impacted you, and, like, the path that you're on now. Yeah, so I feel like that book was just something that I, I don't know how to explain it, like, I wasn't necessarily, like, shocked at the book because, like, it was so normal, but I think it was because of that that I was so surprised to read it because I feel like growing up, I read books where, like, people who look like me, like Asian American females, we were usually, like, a side character. I think a classic example is, like, Cho Chang in Harry Potter, like, she's, you know, she's, like, there, and, like, some people are, like, yeah, you know, Asians are represented, but, like, no, that's not representation, you know, like, she's, she's, like, weak. She's, like, a character who's there to serve, to kind of uplift

00:11:35 - Harry Potter, which is obviously, like, I'm not saying that he's, like, a bad person or anything, but I'm just saying, like, her purpose isn't as, like, a strong human being. Her purpose is just, like, kind of, like, a side thing, so I feel like with the joy luck club, I expected it to be kind of like that.

00:11:51 - The, I was, like, pleasantly surprised to see that a lot of the people had the same struggles as myself with their parents expecting them to do certain things, and there's also the element of, like, especially with immigrant parents, like, they expect you to stay kind of connected to your homeland, and I feel like, for me, that's something that I struggled with as a Taiwanese

00:12:07 - American, because when I, growing up in America, obviously, I've taken on a lot of American,

00:12:12 - American traditions, and, like, my friends are all pretty Americanized, but I still have relatives who live in Taiwan, and we still speak the language from there, so I really resonated with their kind of identity struggle and trying to figure out who they were, and I remember, like, actually, each one of the characters kind of has, like, their own kind of, like, journey going against their parents in one way or another, and their parents also had the same struggle, like, I don't remember exactly who I read this, like, several years ago, but I remember one of them, like, her, her mom's, so, like, this person's grandma wanted her mom to, like, have something kind of, like, an arranged marriage, but then, like, set, but then she kind of, like, broke that and basically ran away from her family.

00:12:55 - Obviously, my story is not as dramatic as that, like, I didn't have to run away from my family, but it was kind of that element of just, like, going against the expectations and questioning, like, why does it have to be like this, and especially in places like China, where women are traditionally, like, not as, not viewed equally as men, I feel like that was even harder for her to do, and for me, it was, like, even though I knew that it was fictional, but I know that there's probably someone who has that story, so for me, it's thinking, like, if someone, if someone can have that kind of strength to do something like that, why can't I, why can't I do the same thing with my life and choose what I want to do?

00:13:29 - So, it was really just resonating with that and realizing that other stories, other people's stories can really become part of my own as well.

00:13:37 - It's funny, it's funny you say that, because I think, like, right now, especially in the time we're living right now, there's a lot more people asking, like, why does it have to be this way, right? Like, we're starting to see, like, these movements happen, it's like, well, it's always been this way, it's like, but why?

00:13:51 - So, it's cool that you bring that up. Yeah, I just wanted to give you some props for that.

00:13:56 - I do want to, I do want to ask, you know, in terms of what you write, you talk about writing characters who look like you, you know, and how important that is.

00:14:07 - With those characters, what kind of stories do you like to tell with those characters?

00:14:11 - Honestly, a lot of them are, like, very similar to myself now. I feel like when I was young,

00:14:18 - I remember, I don't remember if I mentioned this in the, like, initial survey thing, but when I was young, I remember I used to write, like, a lot of stories.

00:14:26 - Some of them, they weren't, like, super good, but they were, like, decent for my age, supposedly, but I remember, like, in kindergarten, I, I, like, won this writing contest or something, and it was, like, great and all, but I feel like looking back, it was about, like, it was your stereotypical, like, blonde-haired, like, blue-eyed person who just, like, and I feel like I just really looked up to those people, like, even in cartoons, like, that's, those are the stereotypes that are perpetuated, and those were, like, my heroes, usually, but I feel like after having these sort of gradual revelations about myself, I'm starting to write about people who are more like myself, and I find that in my stories, I'm writing in things that I see in my future, like, things that I'm, it's kind of, I don't want to say, like, self-validating, but it's more just, like, motivation, in that when I write out these stories, it's kind of, like, showing myself that this is where my future can go, like, this is the potential that, like, I have, and I think the best part about it is that it's someone who is, like, almost the same as me, so it's not, I don't have to, like, detach myself, I don't have to, like, dream about anything, it's something that's actually, like, possible for me. I wanted to ask about your writing, and something that you mentioned, which was you write about yourself, kind of, and about your future and your motivation, and I think that's so cool, because I know that there's, like, thousands of other people out there who are like you that would also be inspired by your stories, so I just do you make your stories and your writing public, and if so, like, where can people who are listening go read them? Not yet, I'm actually working on, like, trying to put that all into a website right now, so I can give you guys a link later on, but it's, like, pretty, like, rudimentary right now, so I don't have anything, like, up and running, but I'm trying to get that up soon, because, yeah, I recently realized that it would be nice if some other people could also see this kind of stuff, and, like, especially just, like, now in this, like, day and age, having conversations with, like, my classmates about this kind of stuff, like, I was really, it was, like, really nice to discover that a lot of people are also, like, kind of, like, poets, like, in their own time, and that was something that I didn't know about a lot of my friends, so I'm trying to get something like that together, maybe even have some other people's work on there as well, but, yeah, I'll keep you guys posted. You should go check out the Brown, the Black and Brown Healing Project, which is a guest that we had, and his, their whole thing is, like, writing and, like, healing through writing, so if you want, I'll send you the link after, but I just wanted to shout them out. It's very beautiful.

00:16:48 - I, I just want to say, so as someone who's, who's also, you know, spent the majority of my life trying to understand my, my identity and feel comfortable in my identity and my culture and heritage, I know there are a lot of struggles with that in my experience, but, you know, a lot of successes along the way as well, you know, a lot of big strides that are made, so on this journey that, that you went on, is there a particular step that you've taken that you're, like, proud of, especially proud of?

00:17:18 - Yeah, so this is actually kind of related to Diversify Our Narrative, but it's kind of a little bit before that, so I've been doing journalism in high school. I'm on my school's newspaper, and I feel like I, coming into the program, I didn't expect to get as much out of it as I have, and last year, I remember, like, offhandedly, I think it was, like, I, I was kind of just, like, reflecting for a moment, and I didn't really have, like, a new story to pitch, so I kind of just pitched a story, like, out of nothing, and it was a story about how, like, my school's curriculum is not diverse enough, especially considering that there are so many people of color on campus, and I ended up writing, like, an editorial on that, that got published in the newspaper, and after that, you know, I didn't expect, like, a pretty big, like, response or anything like that, but it was really nice that some teachers actually read that, and they started incorporating books like A Raisin in the Sun and also The Joy of Love Club into their curricula.

00:18:12 - There were, there are a variety of other ones, too, but it was just really nice to see that people are listening, and, like, people are willing to make these changes, and I'm lucky to live in an area where, like, my school has enough funding and enough of a support system where this stuff can kind of happen, and I think that was actually one of the things that motivated me to join Diversify Our Narrative later on, because it was just something that was really important to me, and it made, like, it just meant so much to me that people also understood that as well, and they were willing to take that extra step because they heard what I had to say, and they were kind of touched by what I said as well.

00:18:46 - So that was a really nice experience.

00:18:48 - I, I'm, I'm thinking, like, when you were writing that editorial, were you thinking that you were going to make, like, that big of a change, or was it just, like, I'm going to write it just to write it?

00:18:59 - Yeah, I don't know. I think I kind of wrote it almost as, like, kind of just, like, dumping words on a page, but obviously for journalism, it has to be more, like, structured, so I just, like, wrote all my thoughts out, and then I structured it, and then obviously I had to add in more, like, newsy words and stuff like that, but no.

00:19:16 - Definitely at the beginning, it wasn't, I didn't expect it to make change at all. Like, I feel like up until that point, my school's administration is known for being pretty, like, I don't know how to describe it. I guess, like, strict in their policies, so they don't necessarily listen to students that much, but I think they do, they do read our editorials sometimes, and we have gotten some change from those before, but I never, I didn't really know what to expect with this one because I didn't think that people would actually care, but yeah, so they did, and that was a good surprise.

00:19:45 - That's so cool.

00:19:46 - That's awesome.

00:19:48 - So, your story is inspiring, it's impactful, it's quite beautiful, and before we talk about

00:19:55 - Diversify, our narrative, and whatnot, we do have a couple quick little fun questions to ask, and stories to talk about. So, first, you mentioned in your survey that you are a grammar nerd.

00:20:10 - I want to know, are you super, like, public about this? Like, do you correct your friends' text messages kind of person?

00:20:16 - Yeah.

00:20:16 - Or do you keep it bottled up inside, you know?

00:20:19 - No, I do not keep that bottled up inside. I, no, like, I literally, I do it to, like, I like to think that I'm not annoying with it. I don't do it to, like, every single person. I do it if, like, to, like, my closer friends who know that I'm like that, and they're, it's, like, fine, but I think it's actually coming to handy a lot because I'm going to be on the editorial board for my school's newspaper in the upcoming year, and specifically, I'm in charge of, like, content, so that's basically, like, my job now, which is, like, so exciting.

00:20:45 - So exciting. And that was, like, I was talking to some of the old members who graduated the past year, and they said that, like, they chose me for that role because they knew, like, how into grammar I was. So, I think that's, like, it comes into handy sometimes, and it's really, yeah. So, it's been pretty fun. Like, I've had a lot of fun correcting people's grammar, like, for a job, which is really nice. Yeah. And I've also, like, I'm, right now, I'm editing for an online literary magazine right now as well, and I think that's also something that is, like, really fun.

00:21:15 - Yeah.

00:21:15 - It's pretty good. Obviously, for, like, stuff like poetry, you can't really edit grammar that much, and especially when I'm writing poetry, like, I don't try to stick to grammar either, but there's just, like, sometimes there's some things that just, like, should not be there that you can still play around with, but yeah. So, I generally don't hide it. I don't do it to everyone, but, like, yeah.

00:21:34 - Okay. Well, speaking of writing and grammar, you and I share a similar experience because we both went to California State Summer School of the Arts in 2018.

we both went to California State Summer School of the Arts in 2018.

00:21:46 - Um, and I do want to talk about that a little bit.

00:21:50 - Um, you know, so, just really quickly, what department were you in, you know?

00:21:55 - Yeah.

00:21:55 - So, I was in the Creative Writing Department, and it was, like, a super, super cool experience.

00:22:00 - Like, I literally, I kind of talked about this earlier, but I think one of the biggest things was just, like, stepping out of my bubble and, like, being, I really felt like I was being independent for the first time, bspecially living in this area.

00:22:11 - Yeah.

00:22:12 - And, like, my parents, I never really, like, went anywhere without my parents.

00:22:15 - Yeah.

my parents were just super like protective over everything and like growing up I went to like private schools and my parents were the kind of people who would like drive me and like pick me up right after school so I never got a chance to go anywhere and I feel like going to camp which is like such a cool experience and also realizing that like for the first time I felt like I generally wanted to learn something and it wasn't just about like grades it wasn't just about like homework but I was like excited to do the work and I would literally stay up until like 3 or 4 a.m some days like doing stuff and I would call my parents and they'll be like why are you still up like I don't believe you're actually doing work you're probably like partying or something and I was like no like I'm actually I'm actually doing stuff the cafe is closed and yeah but yeah so it was a really cool experience it's just getting to talk to all these like professionals and people who have actually like done this stuff for so long some people who have had their work published and one of our teachers um I don't remember uh yeah I think he was like he was a writer for like the pilot of Breaking Bad.

or something like that which is like super cool because he had like the actual script and like

00:23:16 - I don't know if he was supposed to show it to us but he did and we actually got to read like the actual script of the show which like I'm not I wasn't like a fan or anything but it was just like

00:23:25 - I knew what it was and that was just like a super cool experience and besides that just like working with so many people who were just like incredibly talented was just a really good experience and learning from them and all of us had our own like areas of specialization like some people were like pretty much all the time.

00:23:41 - I know that Zeke, one of my classmates, got into NYU Tisch for screenwriting I believe and that's I think that's like what he wants to do which is like super cool and before that I I'd done some like screenwriting but it wasn't something that I was like super into but I think through that experience it was just really cool to try out new things and just talk to all these people who are so like familiar with all this stuff so.

yeah before we move on I want to ask for both of you how do you apply what is it it and maybe like giving it like a quick pitch because there might be some people out there who are listening right now who don't know what what it is I don't know I don't know what it is and it would be great because what if someone's like super interested in the opportunity and now you're simply telling them about the opportunity so just wanted to mention that.

yeah I think well hopefully if we can ever go if people can ever go there in person they have I don't know what their website is but it's probably just like css wait s-s-s-a.

it's css wait s-s-s-a.

it's csswait.gov.org?

probably or is it.ca.gov or some something

00:24:50 - I I don't remember I literally submitted my application the minute before it's due I'm not even kidding like I was sitting in my bed panicking oh no no my like with I I so I when I was a freshman back in 2014 I was like oh I'm gonna

00:25:04 - I'm gonna apply to this and I kept I got rejected every single year until 2018 my senior year um

00:25:11 - So I was struggling so much with my application in my senior year because I was like, oh, they're going to reject me again.

00:25:18 - Just because like with CISA, it is a notable thing, you know, going there.

00:25:25 - You get like awarded like you're a California art scholar and you get like a certificate signed by the governor and like a medal.

00:25:33 - And more so than that, you get to have a college experience, a college-esque experience, you know, while you're in high school.

00:25:39 - And you also get to be in an environment and feel the energy of a bunch of other creative people who want to be there.

00:25:47 - So it's a lot of fun in that regard.

00:25:50 - So how do you apply?

00:25:52 - I absolutely, I absolutely also agree.

00:25:54 - Sorry.

00:25:56 - I absolutely turned in my application like a minute before deadline and CISA the Denver dog was like posting on Instagram and like, oh, like turn in your applications.

00:26:06 - And I was like, they, they have like.

00:26:09 - A lot of like required writing stuff.

00:26:11 - They basically require you to submit a piece from like every single genre.

00:26:15 - So like if you are a normal person who does not procrastinate, you should prepare them like ahead of time, have people review it.

00:26:22 - Do not like frantically message people the night before.

00:26:24 - Like, please read this for me.

00:26:26 - But yeah.

00:26:27 - And they, yeah, I think I submitted like five or six.

00:26:31 - And I think they also ask you to explain like why, why you want to go to the program, obviously, but that should be pretty easy if you actually want to go there.

00:26:39 - But yeah, other than that, just submit your best work, submit it on time and hope for the best.

00:26:46 - It was, I think there were also letters of rec if I, are there?

00:26:50 - Yeah, it's, it's two letters of rec for the film department.

00:26:53 - It was three essays and if you wanted to do like, and then you had to submit a film, I think, and the letters of rec, personal essays.

00:27:01 - And it's like a big thing.

00:27:02 - Like we, like there were, I think Zac Efron went there at one for one summer.

00:27:07 - Yeah.

00:27:07 - I was like, so psyched about that.

00:27:09 - Like, I know I walked on the same ground as Zac Efron.

00:27:13 - Wasn't it?

00:27:14 - And he wasn't singing.

00:27:15 - Um, no.

00:27:16 - What, what was the, uh, what, what, what was the story that Zac Efron died his hair?

00:27:21 - Oh, oh, I thought, I thought, oh, we're talking about, no, I want to hear your story.

00:27:27 - Oh, well, no, no, no.

00:27:28 - I just, I just read that.

00:27:29 - He dyed his hair at camp for the first time.

00:27:31 - Like he died like purple or something.

00:27:32 - That's all I'd imagine.

00:27:33 - So many people did that when I was, when I was up there, so many people bleached their hair.

00:27:37 - Um, no.

00:27:38 - So the story I heard.

00:27:39 - Uh, and I don't know how true this is.

00:27:40 - So this is all a legend.

00:27:42 - Um, but with the dorms, obviously, you know, they separate, uh, you know, girls on one side and boys on the other.

00:27:47 - Um.

00:27:47 - Oh, I think I know where this is going.

00:27:48 - And you can't like cross over.

00:27:50 - But I, uh, but the, the theory I heard was that I heard he got kicked out of Sisa because he was caught in a, in a girl's dorm or he was jumping out the window of a girl's dorm.

00:28:00 - What?

00:28:00 - He got kicked out or either he got kicked out or they, they suspected it was him, but they didn't catch him.

00:28:04 - So they couldn't like, you know, kick him out.

00:28:05 - Um, but, but the, the thing was, he was like in a girl's dorm.

00:28:09 - And, uh, and he got chased out by an RA.

00:28:13 - Interesting.

00:28:13 - Um, jumping through a window.

00:28:14 - But there are like so many ways to do that without going in someone's dorm.

00:28:18 - But anyway.

00:28:18 - Yeah.

00:28:19 - I know so many, CalArts is nooks and crannies of places to be.

00:28:23 - Anyways.

00:28:24 - What's up, Juan?

00:28:26 - Wait.

00:28:26 - So just to like explain, cause I am kind of confused.

00:28:29 - Sisa is a program that you apply with different departments that have different requirements to apply.

00:28:36 - It's like college.

00:28:37 - Like college.

00:28:37 - And you go for the summer.

00:28:39 - Okay.

00:28:40 - Yeah.

00:28:40 - You go for four weeks.

00:28:41 - It's at, it's at the CalArts campus, California Institute of the Arts campus in Valencia.

00:28:45 - Okay.

00:28:46 - Um, and you're there for four weeks and, uh, it's a summer camp and it runs as such.

00:28:51 - Okay, cool.

00:28:52 - Yeah.

00:28:52 - It's so hot, but it's like, other than that, it's a great experience.

00:28:56 - It's a lot.

00:28:56 - I brought, I, I like drove there with my dog who is a sheep dog and it like my, I don't know why, but my parents like wanted to get off the car with me.

00:29:04 - So they like brought my sheep dog in like 114 degree weather.

00:29:07 - Oh.

00:29:08 - It's like standing there.

00:29:09 - And they were like, can my dog come in?

00:29:11 - And then, and then I remember like my RA was just like, oh my God, yes, please.

00:29:15 - We don't want a dead dog here.

00:29:16 - So yeah, don't bring your dog when you go there.

00:29:18 - But other than that, it's a really cool experience.

00:29:19 - Oh, I'm sorry.

00:29:20 - We could talk about this forever, but I have a feeling that we have a lot of other stuff to talk about.

00:29:25 - So thank you for indulging all our speed round questions.

00:29:30 - And to anyone's listening, who's like, Hey, maybe I want to apply for CISA.

00:29:34 - It changed my life.

00:29:35 - Made me, made me a better artist.

00:29:36 - Absolutely.

00:29:37 - Katie, you have Katie's endorsement.

00:29:38 - You have my endorsement.

00:29:39 - And I'm like, I'm going to apply for CISA.

00:29:39 - And you have Zac Efron's endorsement.

00:29:40 - And that is quite possible.

00:29:42 - That's all you need.

00:29:43 - Do you want to move on?

00:29:44 - Yeah, move on.

00:29:45 - Yeah.

00:29:46 - This is the sort of awkwardness you can expect.

00:29:48 - Yeah, you can expect with us.

00:29:49 - Audience.

00:29:52 - So yeah, obviously, you know, we wanted to bring you on to talk about issues and more specifically your organization, which is diversify our narrative.

00:30:01 - We will be referring it to Dawn just because, you know, we probably don't want to say it all the time.

00:30:05 - Yeah.

00:30:06 - And so just to like, start off with like, how would you explain?

00:30:09 - What Dawn is and then maybe talking a little bit more about like, what you're specifically doing with them?

00:30:15 - Yeah, so Dawn's main mission, kind of like, as a general pitch is just like, diversifying the curriculum in English classrooms, like across the nation.

00:30:24 - More specifically, that would involve for some districts mandates, or just working individually with like teachers and administrators to get like, novels or even like short stories, poems or like plays into the curriculum.

00:30:37 - And I think as a general.

overview, I know that several districts have been pretty successful, and they've been talking with like teachers to get these through.

00:30:46 - And I know that I think in like LA Unified School District, I think they got like a mandate or something like that.

00:30:52 - But I know that there are some districts that don't do mandates.

00:30:54 - My district doesn't do mandates.

00:30:55 - So specifically for my chapter, we've been doing a lot of like, outreach to teachers and department heads.

00:31:01 - And I think so far, they've been like, super receptive, which is really nice.

00:31:04 - Like, I was like, really surprised to see that I thought that there would be like, no, like, bye.

00:31:09 - But they were actually like, super open to what we had to say.

00:31:11 - And we had a lot of teachers email back that were like, oh, my gosh, like, we're so excited for this, like, we've been working on this.

00:31:17 - And we really want like student feedback.

00:31:19 - So just like, in general, this has been like a really cool experience and actually getting like, meeting these new teachers on campus who I've never really gotten a chance to talk to and seeing that they're like, genuinely passionate about teaching was just like, so cool to me.

00:31:32 - And just yesterday, I had a conversation with the department head at my school.

00:31:36 - And he he's been teaching for like 60 plus years or something like that.

00:31:39 - And like, the way that he talks about books is like, he literally talked about them as these like, sacred things that are like, change your life.

00:31:46 - And I feel like that was just like, so inspiring to me and just starting these conversations about like, the role of literature in like, forming our identities and understanding ourselves as well as like other cultures is just like, it's really central to Don's mission in general.

00:31:59 - And I think it's something that everyone can find like a place in and relate to.

00:32:04 - So.

00:32:05 - Yeah.

00:32:06 - And I think like, a quick follow up for those who.

00:32:08 - What I like to think is whenever.

00:32:09 - Whenever someone listens, or here is a new organization, the immediate like question is why does it matter?

00:32:15 - So do you think you could talk a little bit more about like, why does it matter that we diversify our narrative?

00:32:20 - Yeah, so I think I can kind of answer that sort of starting specifically with my district.

00:32:27 - So I find that within my district, obviously, I mentioned that we have a pretty high concentration of like Asian Americans in this area.

00:32:33 - And I think in that aspect, it's good, because as minorities, we understand like, those struggles of feeling like we're not equal.

00:32:41 - But I think at the same time, because there's lack, there's a lack of representation from other groups, like Latinos, or like African Americans, sometimes people will say kind of racially insensitive things.

00:32:50 - And I noticed that there's, it's kind of like within each grade, there's like a certain like group of people who will like say these things.

00:32:57 - And like, I, I, I like to believe that they don't do it to be offensive.

00:33:01 - Like, I don't think they're trying to like, be violent or like attack anyone.

00:33:05 - But I think it's just like a lack of education around these issues.

00:33:07 - Specifically, like racial slurs, or just like, just like insensitive wording, or like, even in songs, they'll just like, they'll say things in songs that they should not be saying, or just like appropriating culture.

00:33:18 - And I feel like that's just a really big part of why this diversification is so needed, other than the fact that it's also about representing our identities.

00:33:26 - And I think that that can just like really solve some of obviously, it's not like a perfect solution.

00:33:31 - But I think every step is a good step forward.

00:33:33 - And every like little bit of progress is good.

00:33:36 - And

00:33:37 - I just feel like understanding the faces behind these words and understanding like, why people are hurt by this understanding the history is just so important.

00:33:46 - And especially like, at my school for homecoming, we have like, homecoming is like a super big deal in my school, like we have a whole week of like performances and stuff.

00:33:53 - And we have people from, from like every grade who will like spend months choreographing and practicing dances, and they perform it during homecoming week.

00:34:00 - A lot of that stuff is like, rap.

00:34:02 - And a lot of that is coming from ethnic groups that are not represented on our campus.

00:34:07 - And so I find that a lot of people kind of take that kind of stuff for granted.

00:34:10 - And sometimes they'll say insensitive things about like, the music or that culture, because they don't understand it.

00:34:16 - So I think putting, putting faces and stories behind those lyrics and behind just like that general umbrella of like race or like, just like grouping people into one thing is really helpful in like, allowing us to understand their stories better.

00:34:29 - And I think that would avoid people, I mean, help people to avoid using these like insensitive words or like phrases or anything like that.

00:34:36 - So I think that's really important.

00:34:37 - That's why it's really important, especially in my district.

00:34:40 - And as for areas that are less diverse, I think, obviously, a very important part of that is just understanding like other cultures and being more open to the fact that there are people who don't look like you, but whose stories are just as valid and their voices are important, and they matter.

00:34:55 - So I think that's just like, important for any, any district, like no matter what your ethnic makeup is, or like, who your friends are, anything like that.

00:35:03 - So you, you definitely explain, I think, like the general overall mission.

00:35:07 - Like, what Dawn is doing and like nationwide.

00:35:10 - So I kind of want to dive deeper into like what you're doing in like within your home, your own school district.

00:35:15 - So like, how did you exactly like join Dawn?

00:35:18 - So it was, it was actually like a pretty smooth experience for me.

00:35:21 - So like, for anyone listening, if you're interested, I highly encourage you to start a chapter if you don't have one in your district already or to join it.

00:35:28 - But I think I think the national team does a really good job with like social media promo and all that stuff, as you as you guys know, and a lot of my friends like reposted their stuff.

00:35:37 - Yeah, and I came across their account when I was kind of just, I remember like at the beginning of this whole like Black Lives Matter movement, I was trying to do my own research on just like, kind of how people are approaching this.

00:35:47 - And I was just trying to understand like different perspectives and facts.

00:35:50 - And I like, browse through different like, youth websites that were working on this kind of stuff.

00:35:55 - And I think Dawn really appealed to me because they had a platform and they they were getting things done.

00:36:01 - And their petition right now has like, I think 45,000 signatures.

00:36:04 - So it's like, it's 55 now.

00:36:06 - Oh, okay, well, I checked like last week, and it was 45,000.

00:36:10 - So but yeah, okay, 55,000.

00:36:13 - And it's just like, it, it really amazed me that like, they were able to create such an amazing thing and get people to actually like, listen to what they had to say.

00:36:22 - So I think, at first, I was thinking of starting something similar.

00:36:24 - But then I realized that they were actually getting chapters to open up in like different areas across the nation.

00:36:29 - And I was really lucky because I think, at that time, that was when they were also starting to like expand and all that stuff.

00:36:35 - So I just got into contact with their exec team.

00:36:38 - And we had like a brief meeting where we just talked about goals and stuff.

00:36:41 - And I just really liked what they had, especially as someone who like, really appreciates literature and has really felt like literature had a big impact on me.

00:36:48 - So I felt like that was just like, something that I really wanted to be a part of.

00:36:52 - So it was pretty quick.

00:36:54 - Like after that, we just got into communication, we talked about goals.

00:36:57 - And then like, we kind of talked about general goals that I wanted to accomplish in my district.

00:37:01 - And after that, I just started like, social media promo.

00:37:05 - Yeah.

00:37:05 - And there was someone else who's my co-district lead, Jonia.

00:37:08 - She goes to one of the other schools in this district.

00:37:10 - And she, I think she also found Don in a similar way.

00:37:13 - And so the exec team put us in contact with each other.

00:37:16 - And we started talking about goals.

00:37:17 - And like, we recruited some friends or just people at all the schools.

00:37:21 - And currently, we're really proud that we have representatives from all five schools throughout the district, which is really nice.

00:37:27 - So what we've been working on and are going to be working on even more is just like, contacting board members.

00:37:33 - We've been to the board meetings.

00:37:34 - And we've been contacting the board.

00:37:35 - We've been contacting the board members.

00:37:37 - And we've also been talking to like, teachers, department leads, admin about all this kind of stuff.

00:37:43 - And as I mentioned before, they're like, super receptive to what we have.

00:37:46 - I think the only obstacle is that right now with remote learning, some teachers are kind of struggling with like, finding the balance between adopting these new changes, and also like maintaining some sense of a stable curriculum in their classes.

00:37:59 - But yeah, so so far, we've gotten several teachers on board.

00:38:02 - And I know that admin are really excited, like my principal followed us.

00:38:05 - She followed us on Instagram, which is like, really huge.

00:38:07 - And that was like, super nice, because like, I've talked to her before, like for the newspaper, and I was like, kind of scared of her.

00:38:12 - But it's like, through this, I'm just really getting to know, like, all these people who

00:38:16 - I thought were like, so different from me, but actually finding out that their goals and their beliefs really align with mine in a lot of ways.

00:38:23 - So yeah, I think, looking forward, we're just trying to get more people on board with this.

00:38:27 - And we're having conversations at all five schools, like I mentioned, but just like, kind of making sure that we're getting the same amount of progress in every school.

00:38:35 - And understanding like, the reasons behind why we're not and understand the reasons behind why some people are not as receptive, which I think is obviously part of the mission.

00:38:43 - But yeah, so that's pretty much where we're going for now.

00:38:46 - Yeah.

00:38:47 - Can I just say like, is people like you that like make things change, like, the end of the day.

00:38:53 - And so I mean, I think that's super cool.

00:38:54 - And also, I just checked the website, it's 51.4.

00:38:58 - So I just wanted to put that out there.

00:38:59 - So Don doesn't come after me.

00:39:01 - Yeah, no, it's incredible.

00:39:04 - What Don is doing, and, you know, and what, like, just just the mission of it is incredible and the work that you and your team are doing.

00:39:14 - So I know you specifically are talking about you talked about English, English and stuff.

00:39:18 - But this year, you know, there's been just more and more discussion about the study materials provided by schools, you know, especially for history, showing a biased and oftentimes racist history, you know, completely omitting key historical facts.

00:39:33 - It's amazing.

00:39:34 - Yeah.

00:39:34 - And I think, you know, I think it's really important to, you know, to make the country look, you know, more polished.

00:39:39 - Was there, you know, was there a particular time when you yourself realized that a lot of what's taught in history classes could be as damaging as what Don's mission claims they are?

00:39:51 - Yeah, I think, again, with that, it wasn't, I didn't really have like a light bulb moment where everything just like suddenly made sense.

00:39:57 - But I think it was kind of a gradual thing, because I really like reading like historical fiction, historical nonfiction, that kind of stuff.

00:40:04 - And I've been reading that since like, probably like fifth grade or like sixth grade, something like that.

00:40:09 - And I think reading perspectives from like all different countries, and just like people, normal people who write like diaries or just like random accounts of their everyday lives, and some people's perspectives of the United States, especially in like wars or just like kind of climates where like, they're kind of anti US and the things that they said about the US kind of like, it kind of took me by surprise because I feel like growing up.

00:40:33 - I feel like the US is this like, amazing power that like always wins wars and always does great things.

00:40:38 - And we're like, kind of the people who supposedly like fix the world and bring peace everywhere.

00:40:42 - But I think like reading these different perspectives kind of helped me to realize that like, firstly, it was kind of not everyone likes the US.

00:40:49 - And then after that, I was thinking about like, why don't people like the US.

00:40:53 - So I kind of just started doing like my own research on these topics, and realizing that some of the things that we've done are not as heroic as they seem.

00:41:01 - And I know, definitely just like the kind of the white savior.

00:41:02 - Yeah.

00:41:03 - I mean, that's just something that I've come to learn about a lot.

00:41:06 - And I'm really thankful to my sophomore year history teacher who she it was like a world history class, but she taught it in such a unique way.

00:41:13 - And that like, she didn't just make, I don't think I don't think I ever opened the textbook in that year, actually.

00:41:19 - But she basically just like gave us, it was like a super traumatic class, like in a good way because like, she would we studied like sex trafficking at one point and like, in like modern day slavery, and like, we also did a unit on how like the black women were transgressing.

the U.S. is sending drones to the Middle East and, like, killing civilians, and we had, like, debate, like, class debates over the ethics of that kind of stuff, and that's, like, very heavy stuff to deal with, and also, like, the white savior complex, that kind of stuff, and I think especially that class, after reading all these books, kind of, like, everything suddenly made sense to me, because I was, like, okay, so that is why people don't like the U.S., because, like, we are doing these things that are not necessarily made clear to the public, and I feel like through that class, I kind of just realized that, like, there's not really a right and wrong, but it kind of just, like, shattered that vision of the U.S. as, like, a perfect power for me, but I think that's also, it was kind of liberating for me as well, because in that sense, I didn't feel, I didn't feel like I had to, like, uphold anything, or I didn't feel like there was a need to be, like, perfect anymore, and I feel like throughout my life, it was, like, this weird thing of, like, everyone who immigrates to America is, like, coming for, like, freedom and all that kind of stuff, but there are still some people who don't benefit from that. There are some people who suffer at the hands of the U.S. forces, so I think seeing stuff like that, it's just, like, really good for understanding different perspectives and different people's stories and understanding that not everyone shares the same, like, opinions or viewpoints on life. Can I just say, like, I think that it's so bad that we position ourselves as being perfect, like, we have to understand that, like, being perfect is not the answer to, like, growing. It's being imperfect and learning from our, like, from our mistakes, and I feel like that's something that you realistically just, like, mentioned was, like, we've done a lot of bad things, but, like, we could grow and learn from those things, so, yeah, like, it's cool that you mentioned that. And where the more toxic mindset comes in is acknowledging that there's change that needs to be made, but not taking the steps to make that change. I feel like, you know, there's many points in history and, you know, in present in each individual person and also in the, you know, in the mass amount of people where that is a mindset for some people, you know, where, or some events or whatever, you know, that to acknowledge that what we did was bad, but not changing it, just re, you know, just fluffing it up a little bit, just being like, yeah, let's, it's bad, but, you know, we can paint over it a little bit. Yeah, and you mentioned the history of curriculum in particular, so with, kind of going back to Don for a second, I, that's something that we've had conversations about in our district is definitely something that needs change, but I think for now, the direction that we're trying to go in as a chapter is just to focus on English first, and then after that, try to expand, because I think if we spread ourselves too thin, then in the end, we're not really going to get that much done, and I think another factor for that is that in our district, a lot of people take APUSH, which is AP US History, and for AP classes, it's, like, kind of regulated by the college board, and for some reason, like, APUSH, especially, like, it's not the curriculum, and, like, the materials are very regulated by college board, and I have a few friends who have been, like, trying to communicate with college board about that, but, like, college board is college board, and, like, I, I, like, I don't want to say change cannot happen, because that's never something that is true, but I feel like I'd rather go in a direction where we can make big strides first, have some kind of impact with the English curriculum, and then after that, kind of use that as a jumping off point to convince, like, the people in the history departments or just, like, the history teachers that, like, this is something that works, and this is also change that is needed, so go from there, but, yeah, so I think. Doesn't college board have, like, a monopoly?

00:45:10 - Yeah. Like, right? Like, what? Yeah, absolutely.

00:45:13 - We should, we should talk about that. We should, Johnny, like, I'm gonna make a, I'm gonna make a note. Hey, wait a minute. Yeah. Yeah, they do. It's, it's just, like, a really complex thing to take on that I think we don't have the capacity to do right now, just because, like, we're, we're high school students, and I feel like I don't know how willing they would, like, be to listen to us necessarily, but, like. Don't say that. Do not say that. You are more than a college student, and I feel like, I only say that because during, like, high school or high school, during high school, I tried to do the same thing, like, more specifically, like, to voting, and a lot of people, we would start off with, like, we're college students. I mean, we're high school students, and at that point, they would take us, like, not so, I guess, like, they wouldn't take our point correctly or see our perspective, but after we just started, demanding things and say, like, we're valued members of this community, and we want you to change, that's when they started, like, perking their ears up and saying, like, okay, cool, like, we're gonna listen to you now. So, I would just say, like, I just wanted, like, kind of to mention that because I think I, that's something that I learned from my experience being a high school student. It's just, like, I'm not just a high school student. I'm so much more than that.

00:46:21 - I think on that, that's something that, like, definitely, like, in this community, people have been pretty open to us, even though, like, definitely going in, I thought that that would be an obstacle. In general, it hasn't been too much of a problem.

00:46:31 - But obviously, I don't know, like, how people would be where we don't have connections at all.

00:46:35 - Because in this community, I can say, like, my friends have had these experiences, or, like, this person down the street from me has had this experience. But just, like, on a national level,

00:46:44 - I think part of what makes it so daunting is that these people don't have a connection to you, and they don't have a reason, necessarily, to, like, read your emails or all that stuff.

00:46:53 - But yeah, I mean, that said, that is something that I would hope to pursue in the future. So, it's definitely, like, not out of the question at all.

00:47:00 - Well, to kind of wrap up here, we do want to want to say, you know, you're doing so much, you're doing a lot, and you're 17, you know. So, when it comes to using your energy, using your voice, using your talents for the causes that you represent, and the ideals you follow, I mean, did you have any reservations going into any of it, you know, at such a young age?

00:47:26 - Definitely. But I think, especially, like, my experience with journalism really helped me with, like, that. And I mentioned this before, but, like, I feel like what I got out of journalism is not only, like, improving as a writer, obviously, that's, like, a big part of it, but also, like, the interpersonal skills that I got from that, I definitely, like, did not expect to get that. But

00:47:45 - I feel like that's made me much more of, like, an open person, and it's so much easier for me to talk to people who I've never talked to before. And, like, talking, especially, like, for the newspaper, we interview, like, professionals at universities around us. Like, I've interviewed, like, community college professors, like, people at San Jose State, people at Stanford, and, like, going in as a first-year staffer, that's, like, so, that's, like, the scariest thing ever. I remember, like, my first interview, it was just, my first interview, I interviewed, like, a senior when I was a sophomore, and I was, like, shaking the whole time. Like, I was so scared. I was, like, sweating the entire time. But I feel like getting over that and getting to talk to professionals and all that stuff really got me out of my shell. So I feel like that really helped prepare me for doing this work with, like, youth activism, all this kind of stuff, and especially, like, promoting and convincing people that what I'm fighting for is something that's actually worth their time. And I think those skills with, like, communication really helped me in, like, just understanding how people work as well, and realizing that sometimes, like, I found that sometimes people are kind of, like, I don't want to say lazy, but they just, like, if they don't see a reason to listen to you, they won't. But if you give them a reason, then they will. And I think that's a really big part of, like, activism that's underestimated, and that, like, maybe the first time you, maybe the first time you, like, you're, like, you're, like, you're, like, you're email someone, they'll kind of just, like, brush it off. But even just, like, sending that second or third email again, and then maybe bringing up, like, some numbers, or just, like, testimonials, or anything to back up what you have to say, that's, like, been really helpful for me in showing people that, like, I actually know what I'm talking about. I'm not just, like, a random person off the street. And going back to that conversation about, like, being a high school student, I think using that as leverage is also, like, a really important thing for me. Because I think one thing is that, like, people with college degrees, obviously, they've, like, been in those classes, and they, like, probably understand more about the world than some of us do. But I think there's also that uniqueness, and that we have more of, like, a fresh perspective, I'd say. And we're, like, basically, like, fresh out of this education system. And we, as students at this school, we know more about it than other people who are, like, just, like, outside this bubble, or even, like, teachers who aren't necessarily experiencing it as a student. And I think just, like, pushing that perspective, and showing them that, like, even though maybe I don't have a college degree, but this isn't stuff that you learn. And I think that's, like, a really important thing to learn in a college classroom. This is stuff that you just learn from, like, life and understanding it. And just using that as a reason for them to listen to you is something that has been really helpful for me. Yeah. Again, we're so, like, so thankful that you took the time to talk to us. And you have an incredible story. And just thank you so much for talking about and talking about diversifier narrative. Where can everyone find you? Where can everyone find you?

00:50:26 - Plug, plug, plug. I think I put my, okay, so our district nationwide, nationwide Instagram is diversifier narrative. Our district Instagram is diversifier narrative.f, yeah, .fuhsd. And then my personal Instagram, I put in the, I have anything. Okay, yeah, because it's, like, it's kind of my last name, but not really. So it's, like, hard for me to tell people because they always enter it wrong. But yeah, we'll make sure to add them everywhere. We'll link them in and, you know, all the all the show notes and whatnot. Yeah.

00:50:56 - But yeah, this is, this is a fantastic conversation. And it was just great talking to you. So, so, you know, thank you. Thank you guys so much for listening. And thank you so much for for sharing your story. Yeah, thank you.